Club League 2016: Organisation

I have volunteered (or been volunteered?) to take on management of the club league this year. I wanted to kick around a few ideas to see if there was an appetite to introduce some changes. All of what I am about to suggest may have been tried before (remember I’m only in the club a year) but I am trying to find ways to take some of the work out of the race organisation. Ultimately, I'm a 'if it ain't broke...' type of person but there are lots of new products out there that MIGHT make running the races easier. One of the biggest issues relates to the all important task of timing and the question I have is whether we want to adopt a new system... so in that light, I have looked around and found a few Apps that were developed to record lap times etc. I set out a proposal below and have talked to Graham about the clubs pervious (unhappy) experience with racesplitter. Based on this experience I can see why sticking with what we have is a good option but I wonder if anyone has a view or experience of using these types of apps.

Timing software

Issue
Currently we use the laptop which is pushing on in years and the battery life is not what it once was. Having said this, I think there was only one race last year where it failed completely.
A bigger issue is that the software is not all that intuitive to set up.
A minor issue is that someone has to organise the laptop to be brought up each Thursday.

Proposal
There are a number of apps that were developed to manage race timing. A few of these (e.g. https://www.webscorer.com/) have received generally positive reviews and seem to be user friendly in terms of recording lap times / positions and publishing the results. They have the benefit of being phone based meaning that, once the app is on your phone, you are good to go, i.e. no need for a laptop. The apps can manage the compilation of results, allocation of series points and updating of the leader board. They enable the results to be posted online as soon as the race is over.

Cost
Free - limited functionality but does the basics, €50 - €250 per year for all the bells and whistles (e.g. one phone records numbers and one records time)

Practicalities
All those involved in timing would need the app on their phone and understand how to use it.

In 2013 we moved from the current system to Crossmgr which the club paid about €50 for, this was no better than the old system, so that was returned too. (In fact some people hated it).

In 2012 we had a system that ran on Apple tablets etc. - however much to our amazement iPad screens are temperature sensitive and it gets cold up at the Leadmines so people were shocked when numbers pressed weren't going into the iPad. I don't think that's an issue that's going to go away (?), that's why the laptop is used.

Yes the crossmanager was a total disaster - DISASTER!!
And the one on the ipad wasn't a great success either.
The thing about the software that we have currently is that we know how to work it. the laptop might not be great but its about 100 years old.
Im all on for a revamp of timing but if you are going to trial this system on the phone I suggest you use the laptop as a backup until you are 100% it is going to work. Nothing nice about having 30-40 people going bananas because you don't have their lap times!

And also fair play for taking it on

Why don't we give it a go in tandem with the laptop. You can get a wired numeric pad for the ipad

See, some people are still feeling the effects of cross-manager. . . the ill effects!
my grave-stone will say 'this is the eejit who tried to use cross manager for the club league'

People cant even remember their race numbers and start times.... I dont think its realistic to expect the same people to install and learn how to use a "timing" app. Why not trade-in the ipad for a laptop

As discussed with Dave, we should stick with the existing software, unless there's an updated version of it floating around somewhere?

A new laptop could be the way to go with a longer lasting battery, as the one we're using now must be about 8 years old or more...

Just buy a new battery so

Nahh.... 12.5" Ultrabook:







(pen for scale)

Good man Dave fair play! And if you need any help in the role just shout!

Defo worth investigating timing has never been user friendly as long as I've been involved in the club! But hey we make it work and yes it's a club and races are run by volunteers so the odd glitch has to be accepted.

The ideal system in my eyes would be tags (like cx races) or some GPS tracker ( like all pro and Gaa teams have) that means we set up the system at the race and we don't need anyone putting in numbers, gather the results then at the end. Now I understand the gps idea is seriously ambitious but what about the tags.

Also it may be worth investigating what systems some of the road club use for there club races as they have big numbers and serval riders finishing together would be the norm. I know off the top of my head bray wheelers, irish road club and cuchulainn run road leagues. So if anyone has any insider in these clubs it might be worth asking them if not id be happy to send them an email.

If we are to go with the old system (and I'm not suggesting we should or shouldn't ) I think we should get a screen cast tutorial on how to use the software in place just so everyone knows how to do it and we are not relying and a small few. I can look at getting this done closer to the time if needs be! And if someone shows me how to use it as I've never done the laptop!��

We don't have an ipad either. That went missing when some people left the club.......along with tents etc etc
The tag thing will be too difficult to babysit. We can have up to 80 people signed up to do the club league about half never show up. We would have to provide a tag for every single one. And they are expensive to buy/replace. I'm pretty sure we don't have that kind of money available abyway

Would it be possible for us all to purchase our own chips/tags? What I mean is if they were €20 each or whatever I would have no problem paying for and keeping my own number. Therefore whoever turns up to race will have their own tag and assigned number.
I think the club members who make the effort to come up and race would have no issues with buying their own stuff to help them race.

Dave, I can give you a hand with the club league if you wish?

Hi All, I investigated the tags a few years back - the tags can be very cheap and are priced depending on durability - the problem was the 'gate' this costs money and is/was large and cumbersome (this is the reader that catches the rider coming through the start finish line to record their time and position) I would imagine that this 'gate' has become cheaper and smaller (this needs to be powered also) And you need people to remember their tags! (fix 'em to the bike). Some RFID tags can be fixed like a sticker to your bike and costs less that €1, but as mentioned the gate is the issue. no matter what the price of the tag I would insist that each person pays for the tag - as Caroline says providing these for people who don't show up would be plain-silly! I think it would help with people minding them too! (Could you imagine - 'I forgot my tag, gis another one will ya?)

Dave I'd be glad to help out too should you need it - just give me a call.

Again; I have no bias for any system. Just a fun great functioning club league!

Forget about a chip/rfid system, it's too complicated for what we need it for, i.e. 20 or 30 people chasing each other around the forest on bikes!
Plus the administration of Lost or broken Tags and the costs of them, ordering, bringing spares, setting up etc.

It works fine on the road, generally because they invest in a chip system which would cost a few thousand Euro and be used for open races also, plus they usually have the same people on each occasion doing the timing, and they can park a car at the side of the road at the finish line with the timing system.

As for the "screen cast tutorial", I don't think so! It was always a case of here's the laptop, now click this and go type in the numbers, that's your tutorial....

Yes I was thinking people would pay for their own tags too as a commitment to the league and it would also prevent people from signing up and never going, might be worth looking at but yes it hinges on the cost of the gate for sure and no doubt the cost of the software to run it.

Just an idea I'm throwing out

I have volunteered (or been volunteered?) to take on management of the club league this year. I wanted to kick around a few ideas to see if there was an appetite to introduce some changes. All of what I am about to suggest may have been tried before (remember I’m only in the club a year) but I am trying to find ways to take some of the work out of the race organisation. Ultimately, I'm a 'if it ain't broke...' type of person but there are lots of new products out there that MIGHT make running the races easier. One of the biggest issues relates to the all important task of timing and the question I have is whether we want to adopt a new system... so in that light, I have looked around and found a few Apps that were developed to record lap times etc. I set out a proposal below and have talked to Graham about the clubs pervious (unhappy) experience with racesplitter. Based on this experience I can see why sticking with what we have is a good option but I wonder if anyone has a view or experience of using these types of apps.

Timing software

Issue
Currently we use the laptop which is pushing on in years and the battery life is not what it once was. Having said this, I think there was only one race last year where it failed completely.
A bigger issue is that the software is not all that intuitive to set up.
A minor issue is that someone has to organise the laptop to be brought up each Thursday.

Proposal
There are a number of apps that were developed to manage race timing. A few of these (e.g. https://www.webscorer.com/) have received generally positive reviews and seem to be user friendly in terms of recording lap times / positions and publishing the results. They have the benefit of being phone based meaning that, once the app is on your phone, you are good to go, i.e. no need for a laptop. The apps can manage the compilation of results, allocation of series points and updating of the leader board. They enable the results to be posted online as soon as the race is over.

Cost
Free - limited functionality but does the basics, €50 - €250 per year for all the bells and whistles (e.g. one phone records numbers and one records time)

Practicalities
All those involved in timing would need the app on their phone and understand how to use it.

In 2013 we moved from the current system to Crossmgr which the club paid about €50 for, this was no better than the old system, so that was returned too. (In fact some people hated it).

In 2012 we had a system that ran on Apple tablets etc. - however much to our amazement iPad screens are temperature sensitive and it gets cold up at the Leadmines so people were shocked when numbers pressed weren't going into the iPad. I don't think that's an issue that's going to go away (?), that's why the laptop is used.

Yes the crossmanager was a total disaster - DISASTER!!
And the one on the ipad wasn't a great success either.
The thing about the software that we have currently is that we know how to work it. the laptop might not be great but its about 100 years old.
Im all on for a revamp of timing but if you are going to trial this system on the phone I suggest you use the laptop as a backup until you are 100% it is going to work. Nothing nice about having 30-40 people going bananas because you don't have their lap times!

And also fair play for taking it on

Why don't we give it a go in tandem with the laptop. You can get a wired numeric pad for the ipad

See, some people are still feeling the effects of cross-manager. . . the ill effects!
my grave-stone will say 'this is the eejit who tried to use cross manager for the club league'

People cant even remember their race numbers and start times.... I dont think its realistic to expect the same people to install and learn how to use a "timing" app. Why not trade-in the ipad for a laptop

As discussed with Dave, we should stick with the existing software, unless there's an updated version of it floating around somewhere?

A new laptop could be the way to go with a longer lasting battery, as the one we're using now must be about 8 years old or more...

Just buy a new battery so

Nahh.... 12.5" Ultrabook:







(pen for scale)

Good man Dave fair play! And if you need any help in the role just shout!

Defo worth investigating timing has never been user friendly as long as I've been involved in the club! But hey we make it work and yes it's a club and races are run by volunteers so the odd glitch has to be accepted.

The ideal system in my eyes would be tags (like cx races) or some GPS tracker ( like all pro and Gaa teams have) that means we set up the system at the race and we don't need anyone putting in numbers, gather the results then at the end. Now I understand the gps idea is seriously ambitious but what about the tags.

Also it may be worth investigating what systems some of the road club use for there club races as they have big numbers and serval riders finishing together would be the norm. I know off the top of my head bray wheelers, irish road club and cuchulainn run road leagues. So if anyone has any insider in these clubs it might be worth asking them if not id be happy to send them an email.

If we are to go with the old system (and I'm not suggesting we should or shouldn't ) I think we should get a screen cast tutorial on how to use the software in place just so everyone knows how to do it and we are not relying and a small few. I can look at getting this done closer to the time if needs be! And if someone shows me how to use it as I've never done the laptop!��

We don't have an ipad either. That went missing when some people left the club.......along with tents etc etc
The tag thing will be too difficult to babysit. We can have up to 80 people signed up to do the club league about half never show up. We would have to provide a tag for every single one. And they are expensive to buy/replace. I'm pretty sure we don't have that kind of money available abyway

Would it be possible for us all to purchase our own chips/tags? What I mean is if they were €20 each or whatever I would have no problem paying for and keeping my own number. Therefore whoever turns up to race will have their own tag and assigned number.
I think the club members who make the effort to come up and race would have no issues with buying their own stuff to help them race.

Dave, I can give you a hand with the club league if you wish?

Hi All, I investigated the tags a few years back - the tags can be very cheap and are priced depending on durability - the problem was the 'gate' this costs money and is/was large and cumbersome (this is the reader that catches the rider coming through the start finish line to record their time and position) I would imagine that this 'gate' has become cheaper and smaller (this needs to be powered also) And you need people to remember their tags! (fix 'em to the bike). Some RFID tags can be fixed like a sticker to your bike and costs less that €1, but as mentioned the gate is the issue. no matter what the price of the tag I would insist that each person pays for the tag - as Caroline says providing these for people who don't show up would be plain-silly! I think it would help with people minding them too! (Could you imagine - 'I forgot my tag, gis another one will ya?)

Dave I'd be glad to help out too should you need it - just give me a call.

Again; I have no bias for any system. Just a fun great functioning club league!

Forget about a chip/rfid system, it's too complicated for what we need it for, i.e. 20 or 30 people chasing each other around the forest on bikes!
Plus the administration of Lost or broken Tags and the costs of them, ordering, bringing spares, setting up etc.

It works fine on the road, generally because they invest in a chip system which would cost a few thousand Euro and be used for open races also, plus they usually have the same people on each occasion doing the timing, and they can park a car at the side of the road at the finish line with the timing system.

As for the "screen cast tutorial", I don't think so! It was always a case of here's the laptop, now click this and go type in the numbers, that's your tutorial....

Yes I was thinking people would pay for their own tags too as a commitment to the league and it would also prevent people from signing up and never going, might be worth looking at but yes it hinges on the cost of the gate for sure and no doubt the cost of the software to run it.

Just an idea I'm throwing out